Do you find that question offensive?
Hey folks,
Think about that. Are the Terrorist out to kill us, good Muslims, who as they say, are just following the Laws of their Religion as they see it? After all, they claim that God tells them to kill the Infidels. Their Leaders are promising them great rewards in Heaven for blowing themselves up to take out evil Americans. So would that not make them GOOD Muslims? Does THIS GUY, represent all Muslims? Is he practicing his faith the way ALL Muslims should?
Maybe they are bad Muslims. After all, we keep hearing how Islam is a peaceful Religion. Right? So we can not even bring Islam into the discussion. Right? But they are Muslim right? So that is the debate.
But then again, maybe they are just stupid. Completely ignorant and simple minded. After all, they feel it's a GOOD Idea to strap bombs to their Children. RIGHT?
Offended? Did I cross some line somewhere? Muslims they are? Why not ask if they are good Muslims or Bad? Meaning, does Islam support what they are doing? Why is this not being asked?
What about Joe? Is he a good Jew or a Bad Jew? THAT IS being asked. According to Politics Today's David Gibson, The Joe Lieberman Debate: Good Jew or Bad Jew? Or Not So Bright?
I know I know, he is going to say "I'm not asking the question. I'm simply reporting what Rabbis are saying." Remember back in school? One way to taught someone was to say something like "I heard you are a xxxx. I'm not saying it. But that's what I heard. So are you?"
Sen. Joseph Lieberman's cold shower announcement that he will filibuster just about any version of health care reform with a public option or Medicare expansion has set off sharp political debates about whether a reform bill can pass and whether the Democrats -- with whom the Dem-turned-Independent Lieberman caucuses -- should punish the mercurial (that's the kindest cut) pol from Connecticut.
Way to go Joe. You have the MAJORITY of Americans behind you.
But it has also launched an intense discussion of almost Talmudic complexity about Lieberman's Jewish bona fides.
Flat out attack on his Religious Faith. In an attempt to convince him to lay down his beliefs and just Vote for this INSANE Socialistic Crap! AKA Obamacare.
Jewish organizations in the United States have been among the strongest supporters of health care reform of the kind that Lieberman's opposition may scuttle. They say that reflects the largely liberal and Democratic tendencies of their community, but also the longstanding tenets of Jewish tradition and teaching--as they see it.
What teachings are these? Anyone? Just because some Jewish Leaders may be supporting the agenda for personal gain, does not mean that the MAJORITY of Jews accept this. Just like the AARP supporting Obama, does not mean most Seniors, who are CLEARLY against it, support it. Or that most line working Union Members support Obama. They don't.
"Senator Lieberman is looking at the same Jewish texts that we are, and reaching opposite conclusions," Mark Pelavin, associate director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, told The Forward, a leading Jewish weekly. "I've spent a lot of time in talks with Senator Lieberman, and he is not an easy person to sway."
Reform Judaism is NOT a REAL Jewish founded Group. They are a LIB front group. Just like some "Christian" groups out there. Just like Radical Islamists, do not represent Islam. Right? Or do they?
Not that Jewish leaders and lobbies aren't trying. As we reported last month, several rabbis in Lieberman's home state -- some of whom had not spoken out before on political issues -- have been pressuring Lieberman with prayer vigils and public petitions.
"Because he invokes his Jewish identity and Jewish values so frequently, we, as a community, should speak to what he is saying," Rabbi Ron Fish from Congregation Beth El, a Conservative synagogue in Norwalk, said about his decision to pen an open letter to Lieberman calling him out on his opposition to the health care bills.
But The Forward reports that local rabbis are also using quiet diplomacy, trying to get 25 of the state's 50 pulpit rabbis to sign on to a private letter to Lieberman to convince him to change his stand. The more liberal rabbis--Lieberman himself is Orthodox--apparently prefer a more confrontational approach. "There is a good cop, bad cop routine," one of them told the paper. "On the one hand, there are demonstrations outside his home; on the other, there are people trying to reach out behind the scenes."
So wait. There are "50 pulpit rabbis," and they are TRYING to get, which means they do not have them, HALF to sign a letter. So who many are actually saying these things? TWO?
Just like his foes, Lieberman sees his opposition as grounded in Jewish ethics, arguing that the health care proposals on the table would hurt America and would not help those who need i t-- although, as The Washington Post reported, his varying explanations of his varying positions have left various observers scratching their heads over his real reasons.
It WILL! Who cares if some Libs that are FOR it, are scratching their heads. They most likely have no clue what is IN IT to begin with and are blindly supporting whatever they are told is GOOD for them. As most Liberals do.
Whatever the motives, Lieberman is so committed to his political views and his religious traditions that he walked more than four miles to Capitol Hill from his Georgetown synagogue on a recent frigid Saturday to take part in a rare weekend health care debate -- one of just two dozen or so times during his senate career that he has made that trek on the Sabbath, when strictly observant Jews do not drive. "I have a responsibility to my constituents, really to my conscience, to be here on something as important as healthcare reform," he told The Hill.
So he PRACTICES his Faith in the realm of Reality. Do these Critics of his?
Such high-minded talk grates on many Jewish leaders, who see passing health care reform as integral to the Jewish principal of tikkun olam, or repairing the world, which undergirds much of Judaism's longstanding tradition of social and political activism, mainly of the liberal variety.
Says WHO?
Other factors are at play as well: Jews are immigrants whose history of persecution and constant exile have made them especially sensitive to the plight of the marginalized, and as a minority they know that liberal social policies that protect the weak from the strong can help them, too; Jews also tend to be better educated and wealthier than most Americans, both markers of socially progressive views. (And something that makes the fierce band of neo-con Jews like Norman Podhoretz, author of the recent "Why Are Jews Liberal," even more furious than Lieberman's liberal critics.)
Folks, these people are Kooks. David Gibson is attempting to pass them off as mainstream, but they are anything but. TRUE Judaism relies on GOD. "Adonai, Elohim, El, Shaday, King of Kings, El Shaddai, LORD." They believe in the Torah. They do NOT believe in the Government. Nor do they believe the Government needs to meet their needs. They KNOW God will. And, uh, Obama, is not God.
But Lieberman himself held up tikkun olam as the guiding principle for his political life, as he explained in his autobiography In Praise of Public Life:
"The summary of our aspirations was in the Hebrew phrase tikkun olam, which is translated 'to improve the world' or 'to complete God's Creation.' It presumes the inherent but unfulfilled goodness of people and requires action for the benefit of the community. These beliefs were a powerful force in my upbringing and seem even more profound and true to me today. The ideal of service [is] fundamental to my religious faith."
Allowing the Government to take complete control of your very lives does not fit his view of this? Imagine that.
At his SpiritualPolitics blog, Trinity College's Mark Silk cites the excerpt above and then notes that in 2000 and as recently as three months ago Lieberman advocated letting those as young as 55 buy into Medicare as a way to fix the health care system. But now that such a proposal is part of the reform package Lieberman is invoking it as a reason he will filibuster the bill. "What's the opposite of tikkun olam, Joe?" Silk asks.
He has seen what else is IN THE BILL. It's NOT just that.
So what explains Lieberman's seemingly contrarian stance not only on politics--his constituents as well as his co-religionists strongly support health care reform with a public option--but also on Jewish teaching? Some cite Lieberman's connections to the insurance industry in Connecticut, others think it's about paybacks for the Democrats dissing him during his reelection bid.
Writing in The New Republic, Jonathan Chait doesn't think it's all that complicated:
"I think one answer here is that Lieberman isn't actually all that smart. He speaks, and seems to think, exclusively in terms of generalities and broad statements of principle. But there's little evidence that he's a sharp or clear thinker, and certainly no evidence that he knows or cares about the details of health care reform."
{Laughing} Obama Brilliant. Joe, who is opposing him, stupid. Just like all of you out there. Moron.
Chait -- he's Jewish, too, so he can say this
{I'm NOT SAYING IT. It's just something I heard. Is it true?}
-- actually thinks Lieberman's upfront Jewishness has obscured the better question about his intellectual chops:
"I suspect that Lieberman is the beneficiary, or possibly the victim, of a cultural stereotype that Jews are smart and good with numbers. Trust me, it's not true. If Senator Smith from Idaho was angering Democrats by spewing uninformed platitudes, most liberals would deride him as an idiot. With Lieberman, we all suspect it's part of a plan. I think he just has no idea what he's talking about and doesn't care to learn."
NO. He has READ the Bill. Have YOU? Talk about absolute Imbeciles.
In the end, it's unclear exactly what influence Lieberman's Judaism, or his fellow Jews, could have on his political decisions. These days, arguments over the good or bad faith in a pol's position are often associated with Roman Catholicism. But Judaism has no eucharist to withhold, no effective way to excommunicate an adherent, no real hierarchy to lay down the law -- and no widespread desire to implement any of those mechanisms. In fact, a hallmark of Judaism is disputation, so in a sense the arguments between Lieberman and his critics are only cementing their claims to being members of the tribe. Whether those debates seal the fate of health care reform will ultimately be decided on the floor of the Congress.
So really, there was no point to writing any of this. {Laughing} Good Jew or Bad Jew? Good Muslim or Bad Muslim. Good Christian or Bad,, Never-mind. Christianity is the only religion that most can bash openly without any problems. Some are actually encouraged to do so. I guess since we have a President now that is no friend of the Jews, Judaism is on the table as well.
Peter
Sources:
The Joe Lieberman Debate: Good Jew or Bad Jew? Or Not So Bright?
Hey folks,
Think about that. Are the Terrorist out to kill us, good Muslims, who as they say, are just following the Laws of their Religion as they see it? After all, they claim that God tells them to kill the Infidels. Their Leaders are promising them great rewards in Heaven for blowing themselves up to take out evil Americans. So would that not make them GOOD Muslims? Does THIS GUY, represent all Muslims? Is he practicing his faith the way ALL Muslims should?Maybe they are bad Muslims. After all, we keep hearing how Islam is a peaceful Religion. Right? So we can not even bring Islam into the discussion. Right? But they are Muslim right? So that is the debate.
But then again, maybe they are just stupid. Completely ignorant and simple minded. After all, they feel it's a GOOD Idea to strap bombs to their Children. RIGHT?
Offended? Did I cross some line somewhere? Muslims they are? Why not ask if they are good Muslims or Bad? Meaning, does Islam support what they are doing? Why is this not being asked?
What about Joe? Is he a good Jew or a Bad Jew? THAT IS being asked. According to Politics Today's David Gibson, The Joe Lieberman Debate: Good Jew or Bad Jew? Or Not So Bright?I know I know, he is going to say "I'm not asking the question. I'm simply reporting what Rabbis are saying." Remember back in school? One way to taught someone was to say something like "I heard you are a xxxx. I'm not saying it. But that's what I heard. So are you?"
Sen. Joseph Lieberman's cold shower announcement that he will filibuster just about any version of health care reform with a public option or Medicare expansion has set off sharp political debates about whether a reform bill can pass and whether the Democrats -- with whom the Dem-turned-Independent Lieberman caucuses -- should punish the mercurial (that's the kindest cut) pol from Connecticut.
Way to go Joe. You have the MAJORITY of Americans behind you.
But it has also launched an intense discussion of almost Talmudic complexity about Lieberman's Jewish bona fides.
Flat out attack on his Religious Faith. In an attempt to convince him to lay down his beliefs and just Vote for this INSANE Socialistic Crap! AKA Obamacare.
Jewish organizations in the United States have been among the strongest supporters of health care reform of the kind that Lieberman's opposition may scuttle. They say that reflects the largely liberal and Democratic tendencies of their community, but also the longstanding tenets of Jewish tradition and teaching--as they see it.
What teachings are these? Anyone? Just because some Jewish Leaders may be supporting the agenda for personal gain, does not mean that the MAJORITY of Jews accept this. Just like the AARP supporting Obama, does not mean most Seniors, who are CLEARLY against it, support it. Or that most line working Union Members support Obama. They don't.
"Senator Lieberman is looking at the same Jewish texts that we are, and reaching opposite conclusions," Mark Pelavin, associate director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, told The Forward, a leading Jewish weekly. "I've spent a lot of time in talks with Senator Lieberman, and he is not an easy person to sway."
Reform Judaism is NOT a REAL Jewish founded Group. They are a LIB front group. Just like some "Christian" groups out there. Just like Radical Islamists, do not represent Islam. Right? Or do they?
Not that Jewish leaders and lobbies aren't trying. As we reported last month, several rabbis in Lieberman's home state -- some of whom had not spoken out before on political issues -- have been pressuring Lieberman with prayer vigils and public petitions.
"Because he invokes his Jewish identity and Jewish values so frequently, we, as a community, should speak to what he is saying," Rabbi Ron Fish from Congregation Beth El, a Conservative synagogue in Norwalk, said about his decision to pen an open letter to Lieberman calling him out on his opposition to the health care bills.
But The Forward reports that local rabbis are also using quiet diplomacy, trying to get 25 of the state's 50 pulpit rabbis to sign on to a private letter to Lieberman to convince him to change his stand. The more liberal rabbis--Lieberman himself is Orthodox--apparently prefer a more confrontational approach. "There is a good cop, bad cop routine," one of them told the paper. "On the one hand, there are demonstrations outside his home; on the other, there are people trying to reach out behind the scenes."
So wait. There are "50 pulpit rabbis," and they are TRYING to get, which means they do not have them, HALF to sign a letter. So who many are actually saying these things? TWO?
Just like his foes, Lieberman sees his opposition as grounded in Jewish ethics, arguing that the health care proposals on the table would hurt America and would not help those who need i t-- although, as The Washington Post reported, his varying explanations of his varying positions have left various observers scratching their heads over his real reasons.
It WILL! Who cares if some Libs that are FOR it, are scratching their heads. They most likely have no clue what is IN IT to begin with and are blindly supporting whatever they are told is GOOD for them. As most Liberals do.
Whatever the motives, Lieberman is so committed to his political views and his religious traditions that he walked more than four miles to Capitol Hill from his Georgetown synagogue on a recent frigid Saturday to take part in a rare weekend health care debate -- one of just two dozen or so times during his senate career that he has made that trek on the Sabbath, when strictly observant Jews do not drive. "I have a responsibility to my constituents, really to my conscience, to be here on something as important as healthcare reform," he told The Hill.
So he PRACTICES his Faith in the realm of Reality. Do these Critics of his?
Such high-minded talk grates on many Jewish leaders, who see passing health care reform as integral to the Jewish principal of tikkun olam, or repairing the world, which undergirds much of Judaism's longstanding tradition of social and political activism, mainly of the liberal variety.
Says WHO?
Other factors are at play as well: Jews are immigrants whose history of persecution and constant exile have made them especially sensitive to the plight of the marginalized, and as a minority they know that liberal social policies that protect the weak from the strong can help them, too; Jews also tend to be better educated and wealthier than most Americans, both markers of socially progressive views. (And something that makes the fierce band of neo-con Jews like Norman Podhoretz, author of the recent "Why Are Jews Liberal," even more furious than Lieberman's liberal critics.)
Folks, these people are Kooks. David Gibson is attempting to pass them off as mainstream, but they are anything but. TRUE Judaism relies on GOD. "Adonai, Elohim, El, Shaday, King of Kings, El Shaddai, LORD." They believe in the Torah. They do NOT believe in the Government. Nor do they believe the Government needs to meet their needs. They KNOW God will. And, uh, Obama, is not God.
But Lieberman himself held up tikkun olam as the guiding principle for his political life, as he explained in his autobiography In Praise of Public Life:
"The summary of our aspirations was in the Hebrew phrase tikkun olam, which is translated 'to improve the world' or 'to complete God's Creation.' It presumes the inherent but unfulfilled goodness of people and requires action for the benefit of the community. These beliefs were a powerful force in my upbringing and seem even more profound and true to me today. The ideal of service [is] fundamental to my religious faith."
Allowing the Government to take complete control of your very lives does not fit his view of this? Imagine that.
At his SpiritualPolitics blog, Trinity College's Mark Silk cites the excerpt above and then notes that in 2000 and as recently as three months ago Lieberman advocated letting those as young as 55 buy into Medicare as a way to fix the health care system. But now that such a proposal is part of the reform package Lieberman is invoking it as a reason he will filibuster the bill. "What's the opposite of tikkun olam, Joe?" Silk asks.
He has seen what else is IN THE BILL. It's NOT just that.
So what explains Lieberman's seemingly contrarian stance not only on politics--his constituents as well as his co-religionists strongly support health care reform with a public option--but also on Jewish teaching? Some cite Lieberman's connections to the insurance industry in Connecticut, others think it's about paybacks for the Democrats dissing him during his reelection bid.
Writing in The New Republic, Jonathan Chait doesn't think it's all that complicated:
"I think one answer here is that Lieberman isn't actually all that smart. He speaks, and seems to think, exclusively in terms of generalities and broad statements of principle. But there's little evidence that he's a sharp or clear thinker, and certainly no evidence that he knows or cares about the details of health care reform."
{Laughing} Obama Brilliant. Joe, who is opposing him, stupid. Just like all of you out there. Moron.
Chait -- he's Jewish, too, so he can say this
{I'm NOT SAYING IT. It's just something I heard. Is it true?}
-- actually thinks Lieberman's upfront Jewishness has obscured the better question about his intellectual chops:
"I suspect that Lieberman is the beneficiary, or possibly the victim, of a cultural stereotype that Jews are smart and good with numbers. Trust me, it's not true. If Senator Smith from Idaho was angering Democrats by spewing uninformed platitudes, most liberals would deride him as an idiot. With Lieberman, we all suspect it's part of a plan. I think he just has no idea what he's talking about and doesn't care to learn."
NO. He has READ the Bill. Have YOU? Talk about absolute Imbeciles.
In the end, it's unclear exactly what influence Lieberman's Judaism, or his fellow Jews, could have on his political decisions. These days, arguments over the good or bad faith in a pol's position are often associated with Roman Catholicism. But Judaism has no eucharist to withhold, no effective way to excommunicate an adherent, no real hierarchy to lay down the law -- and no widespread desire to implement any of those mechanisms. In fact, a hallmark of Judaism is disputation, so in a sense the arguments between Lieberman and his critics are only cementing their claims to being members of the tribe. Whether those debates seal the fate of health care reform will ultimately be decided on the floor of the Congress.
So really, there was no point to writing any of this. {Laughing} Good Jew or Bad Jew? Good Muslim or Bad Muslim. Good Christian or Bad,, Never-mind. Christianity is the only religion that most can bash openly without any problems. Some are actually encouraged to do so. I guess since we have a President now that is no friend of the Jews, Judaism is on the table as well.
Peter
Sources:
The Joe Lieberman Debate: Good Jew or Bad Jew? Or Not So Bright?
10 comments:
There may be good Muslims out there but it's getting very hard to find them among the terrorist Muslims and my guns won't look for a difference if it ever comes to that..
Wow. I assume "irishgodfather" is Irish. Do you know the history of oppression of your (mine, too) people? To wish that kind of blind hatred on any people is simply ignorant. But why expect more from an Irishman? And.. I thought people killed people, not guns. I wish you gun people could get it right. I think my guns don't discern among stupid people... if it ever comes to that.
Hey Peter,
Welcome to the OPNTalk Blog. Glad you stopped by.
I'll let Irish Godfather speak for himself. He is not shy. {Smile} But what I took his comment to mean is that he doesn't care WHAT anyone is. If they are terrorists, that is what they are, and he will not take time out to ask question if they come a calling for him or his own. Neither would I.
However, YOUR comment here proves EXACTLY what my point was. David Gibson of Politics Today, was asking, in an attempt to SHAME Joe Lieberman into Voting for Obamacare, if he was truly following his Religion. Good Jew or Bad Jew. Kinda reminded me of someone talking about a Dog. Good dog or bad dog. My point was that's offensive and WAY out of bounds.
Now I like Joe. I do not agree with many of his Views on Politics, but I appreciate the fact he DOES stand up for what he believes in no matter what. I, unlike this Administration, AM friends of the Jews. I both respect them and believe that they ARE God's Chosen People that have been more repressed and prosecuted than ANY other group of people in history regardless of the reason.
So when I asked the question, are terrorist Good Muslims or Bad Muslims, I got what I figured I would get. Even in the Emails I got some telling me that my question is Racist, and they should not be surprised since I'm a Conservative Christian. {Which means in many's warped and ignorant mind, that I am a Racist, bigoted, Chauvinistic, Homophobe. Which couldn't be farther from the truth. But that's the Lib Playbook. Page one, chapter 2.}
However, questioning Joe's Jewish Faith, Mitt Romney's Mormonism, or ANYONE'S Christian Faith, is just hunky dory. Reasonable even, for the well being of the future of the Country. Yet Muslims? Even though EVERY attack on America has been conducted by those professing Islam. Yet we can not question their faith, that would be intolerant. Right?
Peter
I noticed my last comment was never posted. No vulgarity, just facts and disagreement. Figures. Squash the debate. One more quick comment about the "chosen people". You say the chosen ones are the Isrealites. But I thought John Cotton preached that his puritan congregation were the chosen ones. Oh, wait. I thought John Winthrop's sermon to the non-separatists aboard the Arbella a decade later anointed his flock the chosen ones. You know, "City upon a hill..."
I'm just a little confused on which people are chosen. Maybe you can help clarify.
"We must delight in each other, make other's conditions our own, rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, our community as members of the same body." - John Winthrop
Hey Peter,
Welcome back. I'm sorry, but I have no idea what comment you are referring to. I allow ANY comment to be posted here, barring simple Advertisements, or Spam.
Please feel free to re post it, and I'll make sure that it get's published.
As for the rest of your response this time around. I will respond in a bit. I would rather respond to your question, thinking it to be an actual question, more than just a flip one sentence type of response. Look for it in a day or so.
Peter
I'll try to replicate my previous comment that never showed up. It went something like this:
First, the is no such thing as good Muslims or bad Muslims or good Jews or bad Jews or good Christians or bad. There are simply PEOPLE who commit bad deeds. Until we can learn to live without these silly labels (Chosen People!??) we will never know peace. Until we can get beyond assuming some people are better than others (Chosen People!?? - this implies some people are NOT chosen; See?) we will always know conflict. By treating people differently, then giving them special status you instantly create resentment. (This line of giving certain peoples special treatment always seemed odd to me - especially coming from conservatives. It's such a NON-conservative thing to do. It's just such a fundamental principle of the right to discourage entitlements, special treatment, to support a free market and in general to have government stay out of the way.) It's another one of those conflicts of this line of thinking.
Now for your final paragraph. This about sums it all up, doesn't it? Where to begin? I, personally, question EVERY faith - even my own! If you don't, you are merely blind - and ignorant. How can you learn ANYTHING without questioning? And to imply that Islam isn't questioned is preposterous. Ever watch the news? How about listen to AM radio? Religions have always raised more questions than they have answered. Religion by nature is a series of questions and leaps. Only you have the answers in your heart.
And finally. EVERY attack on America has been conducted by those professing Islam? I hadn't realized Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim. I didn't know the KKK prayed to Allah before they hanged black men. I never heard of the Koran-carrying ATF people that burned down the Koresh compound in Waco or the Marshalls' responsible for terrorizing the Weaver family. How about the Americans in Cambodia? All Muslims? Ever hear of Laos? If that wasn't the definition of terrorism, I don't know what is. My point being your statement is ignorant in the least and more accurately racist and zenophobic. Shame.
PS. Sorry forgot one point of the "lost" post. The Crusades. This was the most extensive act of terrorism humankind has ever known. This terrorism was perpetrated by Christians in the name of Jesus. And don't try to argue these were misguided followers using some perverted interpretation of the bible.
They were doing God's work.
Hey Peter,
See my response to you in today's Daily Article. 122909. To much to post here in the Comment Section.
Peter
wondered what you though of this story. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8437460.stm
Brit Hume. Perfect example of intolerance. Using FOXNEWS to promote Christianity and to denounce Buddhism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/03/brit-hume-to-tiger-woods_n_409720.html
The guy knows nothing about Buddhism. If it's not Christianity, tho, it's wrong.
This is such a perfect example of the people on the right who think they are better than everyone because they believe something. And that something is absolute. A FACT (there's that word again).
Brit simply (and I mean SIMPLY as in SIMPLE) captured my whole argument on religion and intolerance in a 50 second ramble about a golfer (A GUY WHO PLAYS GOLF ) who had multiple affairs. First WHO CARES??? Second, maybe he's not sorry about what he did. May he LIKES having sex with lots of women. OH, NO. Maybe only he, himself, can forgive him (BUDDHISM).
(I know this is an older thread, but seemed relevant.)
Post a Comment